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Technical Help > Audio: Lossy or lossless?

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TomLeMajorPosted at 2016-09-13 11:05:32(393 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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Does someone could list what types of records that must be stored in the Lossy category?

Examples:
analogue FM radio> Zoom H4N 24/96 = Lossless
FM digital radio on TV box> Zoom H4N 24/96 = Lossy or Lossless?
Output VHS VCR> Zoom H4N 24/96 = Lossy or Lossless?
Streaming, Podcasts and Webcasts: are always lossy audio?

Thank you in advance !



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surflingDonatedPosted at 2016-09-13 13:53:23(393 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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it all depends on the original source to know if something is lossy -
if a webcast is live and not being recorded with better resolution than it's not lossy.
if someone was to record his albums exclusively in mp3, it wouldn't be a lossy source either.

so for broadcasts, you would have to find out what was the best available streaming or broadcast source as those tend to differ widely, depending on how they were transmitted amongst other things.

and if you are gonna re-record or transfer a recording, the higher resolution you can use, the better to preserve the optimum quality and amount of information.

IMHO anyway  B)

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TomLeMajorPosted at 2016-09-14 07:03:39(393 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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Surfling thank you.
I understood that this is a somewhat subjective depending on other possible sources.

And if I rephrase my question by asking what mistakes not to do to recorded the best?



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paperdragonPosted at 2016-09-16 03:11:36(393 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)
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Also, keep in mind that VHS discs use MP3 audio, and so the audio portion at least is lossy.



...and then my mind split open.
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neilwilkesPosted at 2016-10-19 15:08:57(388 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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surfling wrote:

it all depends on the original source to know if something is lossy - if a webcast is live and not being recorded with better resolution than it's not lossy.if someone was to record his albums exclusively in mp3, it wouldn't be a lossy source either.so for broadcasts, you would have to find out what was the best available streaming or broadcast source as those tend to differ widely, depending on how they were transmitted amongst other things.and if you are gonna re-record or transfer a recording, the higher resolution you can use, the better to preserve the optimum quality and amount of information.IMHO anyway  B)

Anything from or to an MP3 is by definition lossy - it matters not what the source was as by encoding to mp3 you have thrown away up to 11/12 of the original audio (128kbps).
FM Radio is lossless but bandwidth limited so still lossless, just not full range 20Hz to 20kHz (kinda like vinyl - in t he 60's & the early 70's there were labels that used the acronym ffss for "Full Frequency Stereophonic Spectrum" yet they were limited in the top end to 14k400Hz. Same as FM.

To my way of thinking taking an MP3 source will give a lossy result.
Taking an uncompressed (as in "not data reduced";) source & encoding that to MP3 results in a lossy file.
Digital Radio & DAB are all lossy at source - you get mp4 at best (BBC Radio 4) or mpeg (DAB)

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willb3dPosted at 2016-10-19 17:34:37(388 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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paperdragon wrote:

Also, keep in mind that VHS discs use MP3 audio, and so the audio portion at least is lossy.

Ah yes the old VHS disc format using mp3 audio.

I'll assume that was a joke.

But if anyone is interested:

VHS (and Beta) actually have two analog audio options.

When VHS was first introduced, the audio was recorded at the edge of the tape on a really narrow linear track. It was pretty poor sounding - worse than cassette.  

But soon enough, VHS was improved by the addition of a "HiFi" track which was excellent quality - nearly as good quality as reel-to-reel.

So, if you have a VHS tape, you have to try to play the HiFi track (if there is one!) rather than the linear track.

If you have a VHS tape that has a HiFi track, you need a VCR with the HiFi logo on it to play the HiFi track. Otherwise, it will play the old linear audio track instead (because they're both there - the old linear track was not retired since thousands of old VCRs couldn't play the HiFi track).

When you capture that on a computer, you should capture the audio as a wav file rather than as something lossy like an mp3, but many of the cheaper capture devices don't give you any options, so you might not be able to.

So many variables.

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SteveboyDonatedPosted at 2016-10-20 11:32:50(388 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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willb3d wrote:

paperdragon wrote:

Also, keep in mind that VHS discs use MP3 audio, and so the audio portion at least is lossy.

Ah yes the old VHS disc format using mp3 audio. I'll assume that was a joke.But if anyone is interested:VHS (and Beta) actually have two analog audio options. When VHS was first introduced, the audio was recorded at the edge of the tape on a really narrow linear track. It was pretty poor sounding - worse than cassette.  But soon enough, VHS was improved by the addition of a "HiFi" track which was excellent quality - nearly as good quality as reel-to-reel.So, if you have a VHS tape, you have to try to play the HiFi track (if there is one!) rather than the linear track. If you have a VHS tape that has a HiFi track, you need a VCR with the HiFi logo on it to play the HiFi track. Otherwise, it will play the old linear audio track instead (because they're both there - the old linear track was not retired since thousands of old VCRs couldn't play the HiFi track). When you capture that on a computer, you should capture the audio as a wav file rather than as something lossy like an mp3, but many of the cheaper capture devices don't give you any options, so you might not be able to.So many variables.

Thanks for that info, what happens with the audio if you copy a VHS direct to DVD ?? is it HiFi or linea track??

I'm soon going to be ripping some Bowie VHS tapes and want to know the best way.

Steveboy



NO DISCUSSION I JUST WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MUSIC
WANTED
FRANKFURT 1976
1978 REHEARSALS
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willb3dPosted at 2016-10-22 16:57:51(387 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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Steveboy, what device(s) are you using for that? Tell us the brand and model number of each item in the path.


For example, "Sony SLV-N900 vcr, to Elgato Video Capture device, to my MacBook".

Or, if you have one of those "combo" devices like "Funai Combination VCR and DVD Recorder (ZV427FX4)", say "Funai Combination VCR and DVD Recorder (ZV427FX4)".

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SteveboyDonatedPosted at 2016-10-22 19:37:25(387 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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willb3d wrote:

Steveboy, what device(s) are you using for that? Tell us the brand and model number of each item in the path.For example, "Sony SLV-N900 vcr, to Elgato Video Capture device, to my MacBook".Or, if you have one of those "combo" devices like "Funai Combination VCR and DVD Recorder (ZV427FX4)", say "Funai Combination VCR and DVD Recorder (ZV427FX4)".

The equipment is:

Panasonic VHS Player / Recorder NV HD635 [HiFi
LG DPT389H DVD Recorder  > RIP the DVD on a HP Laptop edit in Nero

Steveboy



NO DISCUSSION I JUST WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MUSIC
WANTED
FRANKFURT 1976
1978 REHEARSALS
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willb3dPosted at 2016-10-22 21:28:36(387 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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You're all set. That is indeed a HiFi vcr, so it will play the HiFi tracks if there are any.

Looks like the DVD Recorder will record the audio as it sees fit… there's no mention of different quality levels in regards to the audio. It does mention that the video quality can be set to any of these:

[XP]: Highest picture quality.
[SP]: Standard picture quality.
[LP]: Slightly lower picture quality than [SP] mode.
[EP]: Low picture quality.
[MLP]: The longest recording time with the lowest picture quality.

XP mode will be best, so try to use XP - but it might mean that a longer tape won't fit on a single disc. Still, try to stick with XP if you can.

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SteveboyDonatedPosted at 2016-10-22 21:45:39(387 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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willb3d wrote:

You're all set. That is indeed a HiFi vcr, so it will play the HiFi tracks if there are any.Looks like the DVD Recorder will record the audio as it sees fit… there's no mention of different quality levels in regards to the audio. It does mention that the video quality can be set to any of these:[XP]: Highest picture quality.[SP]: Standard picture quality.[LP]: Slightly lower picture quality than [SP] mode.[EP]: Low picture quality.[MLP]: The longest recording time with the lowest picture quality.XP mode will be best, so try to use XP - but it might mean that a longer tape won't fit on a single disc. Still, try to stick with XP if you can.

Thanks for your comments, I always will go for the best quality whether it be video or audio. Npt sure when I will start but will be in the next few weeks and all will be uploaded.

Steveboy



NO DISCUSSION I JUST WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MUSIC
WANTED
FRANKFURT 1976
1978 REHEARSALS
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neilwilkesPosted at 2016-12-15 13:50:11(380 wks ago) (Technical Help / Audio: Lossy or lossless?)


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By far & away the best way to pull footage off old VHS is to use a bridge unit, something like the old Canopus ADVC 300 (around £100 way back when we still thought CD-R was new).
Going straight to a DVD-R unit is adding all sorts of problems along the way, not the least of which is on the fly comp0ression to MPEG-2 and turning the full bandwidth analogue audio to the disc equivalent of mp3 - it is heartbreaking.
Much Much better to capture into any NLE (we use Premiere but you can equally use FCP) and there are some great free open source tools out there too. Dolby Digital is almost as bad as mpeg audio, and neither are your friend in terms of quality and tracking VHS in at 24-48 LPCM stereo will be better by far - you should also be able to do this without the video by running out of the RCA jacks on the back of the VHS player.

Failing that, have a day trip to London & bring the tapes with you.
Take the digital versions away when you go - I will convert them whilst you wait.

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