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Bowie General > TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?

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pobbardPosted at 2016-02-13 20:32:25(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)


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As far as I know, the only versions of TOY circulating all source from the same MP3 leak in 2011.

However, I was just sent an 11 track version (apparently first circulated in December 2011) with the following notes attached:

"Notes: Ripped from vinyl, declicked manually in CEP2, lineage checked for MP3 ancestry - CDDA 99% probable, (screenshots included in torrent)

Info: I bought this to see if thetracks were from the MP3 source, and was pleased to find they weren't. The LP arrived the same day as my replacement stylus, so this is a fresh transfer with a pristine needle."

I did a quick spectral analysis and it doesn't look like an OBVIOUS MP3 source... and the sound quality is better (more treble/definition) than the 14 track MP3 version I have from 2011. On the other hand, the bottom end is greatly reduced... a side effect of someone trying to make a lossy source sound better?

Curious if anyone has come across this before...

Thanks.

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KiwikidPosted at 2016-02-13 23:02:27(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)


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Hi here's a good conversation in forum we had about it and our different versions as I have that 11 tack vinyl in flac as well http://www.bowiestation.com/TT2/forums.php?action=viewtopic&topicid=502

Last edited by Kiwikid on 2016-02-13 23:04:03




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SteveboyDonatedPosted at 2016-02-14 19:01:45(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)


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Kiwikid wrote:

Hi here's a good conversation in forum we had about it and our different versions as I have that 11 tack vinyl in flac as well http://www.bowiestation.com/TT2/forums.php?action=viewtopic&topicid=502

Has this 11 track non mp3 source been uploaded ???

Steveboy



NO DISCUSSION I JUST WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MUSIC
WANTED
FRANKFURT 1976
1978 REHEARSALS
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JanErikPosted at 2016-02-14 19:12:52(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)
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Steveboy wrote:

Has this 11 track non mp3 source been uploaded ???Steveboy

It is not here yet, but I'm not sure if it is lossless. Coming up soon.

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KiwikidPosted at 2016-02-14 21:01:20(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)


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JanErik wrote:

Steveboy wrote:

Has this 11 track non mp3 source been uploaded ???Steveboy

It is not here yet, but I'm not sure if it is lossless. Coming up soon.

On plot spectrum mine reads out to over 20khz
have a pic of uncle Floyd frequency analysis and it looks good  that come with torrent haven't done my own
but with it is also one for uncle Floyd mp3 to show what MP3 looks like (mp3 taken from album after?)
that's why my comment on other thread bloated mp3 or something not sure how they get all that extra in the 16-20khz zone if it's not there to start with,  so don't think lossless, worked on really well mp3 just boosted the little that was in the 16-20khz range

Last edited by Kiwikid on 2016-02-14 22:48:55




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JanErikPosted at 2016-02-14 21:13:00(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)
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A vinyl normally has a dynamic range of 50-70dB, so my guess would simply be noise...

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aslan1Posted at 2016-02-15 01:14:14(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)


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I have this vinyl also but always thought it was mp3 sourced?

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pobbardPosted at 2016-02-16 03:01:57(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)


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On further analysis, I think this is just an MP3 source with the EQ heavily tinkered with -- the bass is virtually removed and the treble is cranked way up. The spectral analysis shows a lot of activity until about 15khz, and then present but spotty activity afterwards -- a noisy LP, maybe?

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toneblokePosted at 2016-02-16 05:26:41(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)
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I've left an opinion here:   http://www.bowiestation.com/TT2/torrents-details.php?id=1578&hit=1



"Look up here, I’m in heaven
I’ve got scars that can’t be seen"
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neilwilkesPosted at 2016-02-16 09:36:08(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)


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tonebloke wrote:

I've left an opinion here:   http://www.bowiestation.com/TT2/torrents-details.php?id=1578&hit=1

Which is absolutely bang on the mark. This is lossy, all versions of this were from leaked/stolen 256kbps mp3 files taken from Mark Plati's laptop apparently.

It is very easy to fool apps like TAU Analyzer (which calls CD or MPEG) and similar tools - all you have to do is take the lossy source & fiddle with it a little, ruin it through some nice emulations that incorporate non-linear processes and bingo - MP3 source becomes lossless. Hah!
Another problem with looking at the files in a spectrum analyzer is that a 16kHz cutoff is not necessarily indicative of a lossy source - an FM broadcast is also bandwidth restricted, and a lot of 60's & early 70's vionyl was also limited in range - there used to be a label on certain vinyl reading FFSS, which stands for "full frequency stereophonic spectrum" and it cuts off at around 14k4 - not anywhere near 22k.
It has been posted that a CD lossless source will always show audio up to the nyquist limit of 22.05kHz (nyquist's theorem says that to accurately reproduce the entire range of a recording, the sample rate must be at least twice that of the highest frequency recorded, with the emphasis on "at least";) but again, this depends on the source range. Personally, I agree with the study done by the AES that says we should be using 3 times the upper frequency response to prevent aliasing at the Nyquist limit.

Other problems include bandwidth limitations of the original gear - the console used, the tape machine used etc - not all of them go anywhere near 20kHz, and a lot of the classic gear used in older studios cuts off around 15kHz.

The only real way to tell lossy is to listen to it and be listening for what has been called "space monkeys" but again this only works on stereo recordings & will not work on mono.

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toneblokePosted at 2016-02-16 11:56:52(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)
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neilwilkes wrote:

all versions of this were from leaked/stolen 256kbps mp3 files taken from Mark Plati's laptop apparently.

First time I've heard this. Considering what has been shared since the first leak, in it's different guises, I'll lean towards that. Cheers.



Slight rant:-

Over the journey I've seen a handful of people claim that they can "manipulate" a lossy audio track and make it, at least look, lossless. I'm sure it can be done BUT to what end. This journey we boot collectors are on isn't the be all and end all when it comes to having quality audio. This isn't my minor rant about lossless vs lossy but an observation.

I collect lossless (in whatever form it comes in) but I listen to lossy on a daily basis because it's easy. Chuck a few hunderd tunes on the Ipod and I'm good to go. I don't denigrate lossy 'cause it's useful but I choose to have better quality audio when I really want to "listen" to something.

End of slight rant.



Neil, you make some good points above but the one I always have in the back of my mind is that when analysing any audio, but more often when it's an older capture, is the equipment used at the time will have a big bearing on what we "see" now when chucking a file in the DAW. But then you can't disregard the fact that people will share "dirty" caps/rips and pass them off as the good stuff for whatever reason.



Last edited by tonebloke on 2016-02-16 11:59:14




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KiwikidPosted at 2016-02-16 12:25:08(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)


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tonebloke wrote:

but the one I always have in the back of my mind is that when analysing any audio, but more often when it's an older capture, is the equipment used at the time will have a big bearing on what we "see" now when chucking a file in the DAW.

something reading a while ago so would go for old radio broadcast shows
is AM radio maximum output frequency was max 1605khz why pay for the extra bandwidth
when it really wasn't necessary
gee they knew way back then so why didn't I have an Ipod as a kid

so people yelling out it's lossy need to consider this as well
one show I put up was a 1971 AM Broadcast capture first comment was it's lossy

so I've got in my head early 70's radio capture can guess going to look like lossy
other early 70's some might not be much better

Last edited by Kiwikid on 2016-02-16 12:25:47




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DavesolarDonatedPosted at 2016-02-16 16:51:54(423 wks ago) (Bowie General / TOY - 11 track vinyl version, supposedly lossless?)


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Quote:

Tonebloke wrote : I collect lossless (in whatever form it comes in) but I listen to lossy on a daily basis because it's easy. Chuck a few hunderd tunes on the Ipod and I'm good to go. I don't denigrate lossy 'cause it's useful but I choose to have better quality audio when I really want to "listen" to something.

That's my point too, I really dislike MP3, but when there is no lossless version in the moment, I'll give MP3 a (not glad) listen, but when I get it lossless - the MP3 dies in the same moment !!   :bomb

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